Hey all, first of all, hats off to @jameskaikis and @Rob Falcone for a great webinar this week. I challenged them a little bit on LinkedIn to complete the Six Habits cycle by PERFECTing the webinar delivery, and I think they did just that! In fact, I think the Just F*ing Did That!
But I'm a bit bothered by something Rob said. He said that for product-led growth organizations, discovery before a demo is a mistake. That prospects want to see something early - as in right now - and not have to answer a bunch of questions before they do. In fact, THEY often show up with more questions in the first call than we do.
Here's what bothers me even more. I COMPLETELY AND TOTALLY AGREE WITH HIM!
Anybody who's ever worked with me - or read my book for that matter - knows that I'm a huge proponent of technical discovery. I believe very strongly that there are many solutions out there that are far too complicated to demonstrate before you've done your due diligence and determined what it is that your prospect needs to see and experience to move forward with their purchase process.
However, what - frankly - was not as obvious to me until Wednesday, is that there are some companies out there whose products do NOT require discovery in order to be demonstrated. This idea of the disco-demo is certainly one that I've talked with my clients about before. But usually as a last-resort. I.e. if you don't have the opportunity to do discovery before the demo, go into the meeting prepared to do a little bit of discovery up front and have some demo "snippets" at the ready once you've determined where to go.
In all seriousness, Rob's talk has really challenged me to rethink my stance on discovery. I still maintain that for some - maybe MANY - organizations, technical discovery before a sales demonstration is critical. However, he has opened my eyes to the reality that there are numerous products on the market that don't require discovery before a highly effective demo can be given.
So here's the question I'm inclined to put on the table. Let's see if we can figure this one out. What is the profile of a company, product, market, etc. for which discovery before the demo is critical? And likewise, what is the profile of the company or product or solution that does not require discovery up front? In fact, those for which discovery might actually detract from the buying experience.
Rob gave us some ideas to start with. He talked about "product-led growth" companies. And he's absolutely right. But exactly does that mean? And is there more to it than that? And should all product led companies BE product-led companies? Are there some that should not be? Are there some that are not that SHOULD be?
Very interested to hear everyone's opinions on this. The software and technology world is changing faster than we can keep up with. As is the way we sell. We crack this nut, and we might just be doing both buyers and sellers a huge service.
I opened with 'To Disco or Not. That is the question.' I guess that's not really the question. I think the question is 'Discovery - when, where and under circumstances and conditions'?
Can't wait to hear your thoughts...
Great post and a great discussion the other day during the event.
Just my two cents here to expand a bit more.....Nowdays customers are far more educated when trying to assess new solutions. They do their prep work (thank you internet/thank you competitors) and show up with many questions like they have already progressed in the sales cycle!
Discovery for sure happens and will happen since both customer and seller need to align at some point of time....From the moment we are called to discuss how we can assist a customer with a challenge, it is discovery all along and who knows what else we might find out.
I agree @Dimitris Karistinos. Well said. Discovery happens throughout the entire sales lifecycle - or buyers journey, as we like to call it these days. At least it should. I don't think we should carry around this notion that discovery is a one-time event and then everything flows smoothly from there.
And good point about buyers being better informed. We need to work that much harder to deliver insights and disruptive truths.
Thanks for the comments. Eager to hear from others.
I find this discussion really thought provoking, especially having worked in environments where delivering a standard demo was encouraged and others where I would spend days or weeks creating a heavily customised demo after significant discovery had been conducted. The reality is that the amount of pre-demo discovery required is always going to be situational, but here are a few of my thoughts on the company & product profile which may allow an "early" product-led demo to still be effective:
1. Your product is disruptive i.e. it is significantly different to other offerings in your market, enabling your prospects to immediately understand your USPs.
2. Your product does one thing really well (as described by the Hedgehog Concept in Jim Collin's Good to Great). You probably have a single core product which is not made of multiple acquired technologies. This simplicity means you don't need to put much thought into which capabilities to show (or hide) during your demo.
3. You have a pricing model which enables customers to start using your product with minimal up-front investment (e.g. no big implementation projects or perpetual licensing costs). If you're pitching to the Enterprise then you're going to want to do more discovery up-front.
Love to hear what others think.
Well said @Alexander Ross. I especially agree with point #2. If the product fits a reasonably narrow scope and does one thing really well, it’s less likely discovery is necessary.
keep the conversation going folks. Who else has a perspective here?
Agree with all points but especially 2 and 3 - I've sold products that follow that model and it was often not necessary to do disco for those - however I did try to spend time during the demo to uncover other areas of pain and need, and other value add topics that we could follow up later for additional revenue.
Definitely agree there is no blanket answer for this. In my experience, it really depends upon customer size, deal size, and the complexity of the product. Even beyond these three categories, a lot of it has been using my best judgement when I actually get to the meeting. Even in the scenarios where I worked with a product that "did one thing well" vs. a more complex platform play, I still found that the larger the customer (and therefore, the deal size) the more discovery was expected AND appreciated up front. It has certainly been a challenge that I have discussed with many of my reps, and at the end of the day, how we decided to proceed in the call ended up getting watered down to a couple of things:
If we show the demo now because that's what the customer thinks they want, what risk or benefit does this pose to the deal? For example, if the customer is relatively low level and will need to eventually bring in the higher ups, then showing them a demo to get to the higher ups is more valuable than the discovery information. Their issues would be tactical vs. strategic, and would be relatively standard and unhelpful in building a business case.
If we are committed to a demo and the customer has a group already committed on their end, it always raises a red flag to me. If the customer is invested enough to bring all those people, their expectations and familiarity with the product/product fit will vary in the group. Committing to the demo, but asking for a "sidebar" conversation with your contact to get an understanding of who the group is and what their expectations are can be just as valuable as a "discovery" call.
I suppose, in summary, I'm saying that the demo is a bargaining chip. It really just depends on the deal specifics when it makes sense to give it away. I'm not debating customer expectations have changed, but I do think that sometimes (particularly more inexperienced buyers) do end up appreciating a consultative sale when necessary.
You said a number of key things there @Hannah Bloking! First and foremost, this being a topic you have "discussed with many of your reps". That is SO KEY. More times that not when I work with someone who is struggling in some phase of their job, it boils down to 'you need to sit down and discuss this with your sales counterpart'. So that is good place to start for anyone reading this - discuss this topic with your reps!
You also mention the bargaining chip. I love that concept! I've told so many people this. You only get one chance to make a first impression. Once they've seen the demo - and particularly if it doesn't go well - what then? It's difficult to climb back out a hole you've dug yourself into with a demo that didn't hit the mark. Not impossible. But it can definitely be an uphill battle. We tend to hold the chips before the demo, because you still have their curiosity. But once you unveiled the product, if they're confused or not impressed, you've lost a lot of momentum.
My final observation is your comment about "what the customer thinks they want". These are such valuable words for people newer in this role to hear. I can't tell you how many times I've heard someone I've worked with say "Well, it's what the customer asked for, and the customer's always right." My response. Not so fast. Yes, we have to put the customer first. But they don't always know what's in their best interest. Part of our job is to help the customer navigate the buying journey. In many cases, demonstrating the product before we fully understand what it is they are trying to accomplish may actually be a disservice to them.
Very well said Hannah!
@Hannah Bloking , I agree it should be discussed with the sales reps. In my opinion, everyone in the pre and post sales process should have the opportunity to demo. What you will find is that only small percentage of reps will take advantage of that opportunity.
There are some reps that watch a SE or Product Leader once and immediately can add value with demo in discovery and there are others that need more practice and even SE resources to build confidence. When I was an AE, the SE played such a critical role with knowledge transfer and coaching to enable us to execute top of the funnel demos. I continue to do the same for the AEs that I support.
@Chris White , as for question: What is the profile of a company, product, market, etc. for which discovery before the demo is critical? I would say that every product demo (my experience SaaS and PaaS) should have some level of discovery even if it is only pre-disco research, alignment with ICP and customer story.
If the product and/or service is more complex reps could show the desired state with a simple talk track that aligns with a customer story or positive business outcome that was uncovered during the discussion.
I look forward to hearing more from the PSC community on this topic and definitely interested in exploring the 10 click demo idea that was shared during the webinar.
I wonder if @Brian Mazzaferri has any opinions here?
@JamesKaikis you know I've always got too many opinions! First of all I absolutely love the caliber of the discussion here, and I found myself nodding when reading just about every entry.
I totally agree that the early demo is a wonderful tool to have in the tool kit, especially if it's designed (like @Peter Cohan 's 'Vision Generation' demos) to weave in and out of further discovery, it can actually be a great tool to help develop and explore customer pains, leading to a more customized demo down the line.
I'm currently reading Major Account Sales Strategy by Neil Rackham (of SPIN Selling fame), and one of the things he calls out in that book is that while discovery is generally a great thing, if buyers are already past the Recognition of Needs phase and into the Evaluation of Options phase, it can actually be counterproductive to insist on backtracking to identify and explore their pains. And given how far along many customers are in their buying processes before they even talk to us, I do see this happening with some regularity. Interestingly, I've found that in this situation, a demo (especially when lightly targeted in some way toward their industry or function) can actually be a great way to meet them where they're at and start building a partnership, rather than insisting on a discovery session before being willing to show them anything.
For many (most) software vendors, doing Discovery is both necessary and offers a significant competitive advantage. That said, however, there are numerous scenarios where Discovery is not necessary - let's explore...
When Is Discovery Not Needed?
There are a number of situations where Discovery is either not important, impossible, or very difficult to complete sufficiently. Here are a few examples, with explanation:
1. Low Dollar-Value Transactions
As a customer, do you need to discuss your situation, problems and needs when buying a low-cost commodity product such as a new knife sharpener? Likely not. Online reviews and readily available product information enable customers to make decisions without any need for communication with a vendor.
Many B-to-B Low-end software products fall into this category, including various utilities, whiteboarding tools, scheduling applications, and presentation add-ons.
Solution?
Be the best offering in the category, with lots of positive reviews and enthusiastic users.
2. The Buying Committee Has Already Been Through Discovery (With Someone Else)
If you, as a vendor, are late to a buying process, it is likely that the buying committee has already have substantive Discovery conversations with one or two other vendors.
At this point, the committee likely feels they need no further discussions. They believe they have communicated sufficiently to the other vendors and has no wish to repeat those conversations.
Solutions?
a. Be first, next time…!
b. Apply a portion of the Challenger model, introducing critical new information that materially changes or nullifies the customer’s current position.
The successful application of artificial intelligence as a new method for analysis or prescriptive action could be an example of this. An older (but still possibly relevant) example is introducing the availability of a SaaS offering to a customer still contemplating an on-premise solution.
Another related possibility is to uncover a major discontinuity in the customer’s business that materially changes their situation – acquisitions, divestitures, leadership changes, and major changes to the customer’s market, offerings, or competition are examples.
c. Attempt to do Discovery during demo meetings. This is pretty tough, frankly.
You are likely at risk of annoying the customer by continually asking questions (that they have already answered for someone else) when all they want is to see how your offering compares to what they have likely seen previously.
d. Use the Menu Approach and Vision Generation demos as a vehicle to engage in Discovery. You are likely still at risk, but these approaches provide sufficient quid pro quo for customers to feel comfortable with a reasonably productive give-and-take process.
3. The Buying Committee Has Already Made Their Decision – Part 1
In this case you are “Column Fodder” and it is likely that the buying committee needs to complete due diligence with a minimum number of vendors to satisfy their internal purchasing requirements.
It is highly unlikely that the customer wants any other than a proposal from you that includes complete pricing information (which the customer intends to use, if possible, to drive down the price asked by the vendor in Column A…
Solutions?
a. Again, be first next time…!
b. Offer a shockingly low price such that (1) the customer feels obligated to enter into a discussion with you because the low price triggers changes in their evaluation and purchasing processes and (2) if the customer still chooses the vendor in Column A, that vendor’s margin will be minimal…
c. As with the previous case, you can apply a portion of the Challenger model, introducing critical new information that materially changes or nullifies the customer’s current position.
4. The Buying Committee Has Already Made Their Decision – Part 2
The buying committee relied on strong, personal references from other, similar customers – there was no Discovery done by anyone.
This happens reasonably frequently, even with big ticket software. Often it is the case where the buying committee is a single, powerful individual (or managed by same).
Solutions?
a. Focus on customer success and build strong, loyal references. Establish Value Realization Events and help your customers achieve them as rapidly as possible post-“Go Live”. Be a true partner as opposed to “just another vendor”.
b. Ensure that your offering is so much better than the competitions’ that customers perceive there is only one rational option – yours.
Story: In 1851, a famous yacht race took around the Isle of Wight. Despite starting last of 15 boats, the schooner America overtook the whole fleet and she finished several miles ahead of the few remaining contenders. When Queen Victoria asked who came second, an aide replied, "Your Majesty, there is no second."
5. RFP’s With Exquisitely Detailed Background and Requirements Information
Ha ha ha. Have you ever seen this happen? It is possible, but...
Notwithstanding, this possibility needs to be included.
Solutions?
a. Bias RFP’s by periodically releasing RFP templates to your customers (and their 3rd party consultants) to bias the resulting RFP’s towards your offerings.
b. Oh yes, and be first…
6. The Customer Just Went Through the Process Elsewhere.
This case is not unusual. A key player (or the key player) successfully completed purchasing and implementing a solution in the same space at another organization, just prior to joining the new team.
He or she has already been through the full process, made a decision and enjoyed a successful roll-out. It is possible that he or she was hired specifically to repeat that process.
Strategy?
Be the vendor chosen previously…!
7. An Intimate Relationship with an Existing Customer
You are the entrenched vendor with a history of success with your customer. The relationship is open, detailed, and ongoing. It is likely that you know more about the customer’s processes and politics than they do…!
Strategy?
Stay close and continue to delight…!
There are likely other scenarios as well, where doing Discovery is unnecessary, difficult, or impossible.
But Wait, There's More...!
With respect to the opinions offered in this thread, ask yourself how closely the posters' offerings, market, and experience compare with yours versus (at least) the following parameters:
- Are your customers “greenfield”, replacement, or a mix?
- Are they early-adopters, fast-followers, majority, or laggards?
- Are you the market leader, one of many players, or a newcomer?
- Do you sell into small businesses, mid-market, or enterprise?
- How much of your business is done through partners or resellers (and what is your level of involvement)?
- Do your customers consume as individuals, individual departments, or corporate-wide?
- Does your software operate largely on its own or are there multiple interdependencies?
- Is your offering a single deliverable, or does it have multiple options or modules?
- Do you offer free trials?
- Are your leads inbound, outbound, or a mix?
- How mature and skilled are your sales counterparts?
- Are your typical demos 30-60 minutes, 2-4 hours, or can they run a day or longer?
- How often is a POC or POV required by your customers?
- Is your strategy land-and-expand or single purchase?
- Do you license by subscription – and how long are the terms?
- How much implementation is required to “Go Live”?
- How long before your customers begin to derive value after Go Live?
Ask yourself, how well does their advice apply to your situation…
Equally important, ask yourself how doing (or not doing) Discovery applies to your sales situations. The need for Discovery, as well as the opportunity to do Discovery, varies rather broadly…!
Nice checklist! I found a couple new ones to add to my own list I've built over the years! Thanks for sharing!
Great discussion :)
The only person that mentioned "Inbound vs Outbound"is @Peter Cohan , and I actually think that's a big part of discovery for many platforms. Think about automation tools like Zapier or Tray.io.
An inbound lead probably Googled "how do I connect Marketo to SFDC to Google Sheets" and therefore has a very specific use case in mind.
When that's the case, I vote demo first and then a bit of discovery to try and uncover other use cases. If we do too much discovery up front they will lose patience (since they came in with a specific question).
An outbound lead usually comes in less prepared and doesn't know exactly what they want to do. Discovery is crucial in the beginning so you can utilize the time spent demo-ing on the specific use cases they care about. Without discovery first you're just guessing.
You bring up a really interesting point Noam - inbound vs. outbound. I totally see your point. If it's an inbound lead - i.e. someone hit "Request Demo" on the website, they may have a decent idea of what they are looking for and may not want to be bothered by too much discovery. I still believe in at least a little bit of discovery here - so this may be the right place to do the "disco-demo" Rob talked about.
And I see your point about outbound leads. If this is something an SDR or BDR opened up, then, in many cases, we don't know what we don't know. But we need to be careful here too and be prepared to lead with value - lead with an insight. If someone reaches out to me to initiate a conversation and I accept, I'm not sure I want to spend the first 30 minutes of a call answering questions about myself or my business. Share with me some valuable insights and that will make me more inclined to open up a little bit more. So it's an interesting balance. I certainly don't have all the answers. I think it's a fine line that many of us have to learn to walk.
Thanks for your contribution to the thread.